Debunking The Zeitgeist Movement
April 26th, 2009 by Ben Moreno
’)I have yet to see strong enough evidence that shows that the ideas of The Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project are not worth it, or will not work.
I have been spending some time in the last few days talking to various people regarding these ideas. I have watched all 3 movies and have read everything on both websites. I have also watched various interviews with Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. So the concept of this movement is very clear to me.
When I explain it to people I get the same reactions every time. They usually think that it is either a cult or it is communism. This is of course not true, there are big differences. Then people usually resort to the human instinct and natural greed idea, which is also not true.
I would like to hear what intelligent arguments people have against the movement. So far I have yet to see one. I look forward to your comments.
Tags: debunk, zeitgeist movement
April 30th, 2009 at 11:54 am
The good way to measure whether you’ve joined a cult (or a religion) is whether you ignore evidence in order to maintain belief.
Here’s my argument against the Zeitgeist movement. The Venus Project uses Zeitgeist as its premises. The argument is essentially ZEITGEIST + ADDENDUM = VENUS PROJECT.
Usually, the best way to tackle an argument is to show that its premises are basically wrong. The films basically argue that “religions suck”, “the government sucks (look at 9/11)”, and “the treasury/economic system sucks”. And somehow all those together justify the “Venus Project.”
So, first premise: 1) Religion sucks. NO SHIT! Do we have to go into detail about that? How is that even a premise? It’s not even related to the conclusion, unless one is seeking to replace one religion with another one.
Second, 2) the government sucks. Government is but a necessary evil, said Benjamin Franklin. But all that stuff in Zeitgeist about how the government is the one responsible for 9/11 is a bunch of b.s. Seriously. It’s a bunch of b.s. Read Richard Clark’s book Against All Enemies. He was there. The entire government was caught by surprise. Or read this explanation by the people from the Skeptics Society: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html. The worst that the government did was seek to take advantage of the situation to get into Iraq.
Finally, 3) the Treasury sucks. Read this article by Edward Flaherty. He’s just reiterating common knowledge really: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html. The Zeitgeist boys basically either misunderstand how the treasury works, or just don’t care.
Essentially, the Venus Project is based on 1) an entertaining but completely irrelevant argument on religion. 2) Conspiracy theories that have been shown to be false. 3) Misunderstanding of the Treasury.
Therefore, the Venus Project fails miserably. Everyone has an agenda.
May 1st, 2009 at 6:52 pm
First off let me say thank you for accepting my invitation to discuss the Zeitgeist Movement.
You started off by saying a cult or religion ignores evidence in order to maintain belief. This may in fact be true, however The Zeitgeist Orientation Video states very clearly right at the beginning that.
“The Zeitgeist Movement is not a political movement. It does not recognize divisional notions such as races, religions, creeds, classes or governments.”
Next you said that the premises of the movement are basically ZEITGEIST + ADDENDUM = VENUS PROJECT. To lump all of the extensive information of all 3 videos into one basic idea is presumptuous. There is a basic overall idea presented but a more fitting way to description would be
“The application of the scientific method for social concern.”
The movement focuses on creating awareness of the problems we face today and working collectively to help resolve those problems by the use of high technology and using the Earth and it’s resources as the guide.
First Premise: Religion
Although you and I see pretty much eye to eye on religion doesn’t mean that the the world’s people see it that way. Religion is rampant and the way the first video breaks it down is important for people to see. Although there is speculation that Peter Joseph (He is the producer of the videos by the way) may have had some dates slightly off in his research doesn’t excuse the fact that many religions share very similarities based off the sun. People should understand this.
Second Premise: Government
I read the article you linked to about the 911 conspiracy and have to say that I never read that one before and it does put many things into perspective. However, let it be known that I never came to any conclusion about that incident other than the fact that there was some very suspicious things about it all.
In the first Zeitgeist video I think Peter Joseph added it in to help promote the idea that our government along with all institutions are basically corrupt, and will always be, because of our monetary system. I will be happy to ask him what his purpose was for putting that information in the movie. He can then address it as he does many questions on his next radio broadcast.
Third Premise: The Treasury
I went ahead and read the information from the link you gave me about Edward Flatery and what he says about the treasury. I looked into this and came across another article that reveals that Edwards facts are half truth. Check it out to see why http://www.freedom-force.org/freedomcontent.cfm?fuseaction=meetflaherty&refpage=issues.
Regardless, the information in both Zeitgeist Addendum and The Zeitgeist Movement Orientation about the fractional reserve banking system was taken straight out of Modern Money Mechanics. This is a booklet that was published to the public by the Public Information Center Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. Here is a link to the PDF version of the document. http://www.rayservers.com/images/ModernMoneyMechanics.pdf
The video basically explains our banking and money system as it exists and reveals why it is a problem. I think the zeitgeist movement has a pretty clear understanding of it works. The way the Orientation video breaks down our system of the employer, employee and consumer is very clear to anyone in this world that works for a wage.
Finally, your last statement, “Everyone has an agenda.” I simply say this, What is wrong with an agenda of creating a solution that provides the basic NEEDS of ALL people in the world?
May 4th, 2009 at 9:11 am
By saying ““The Zeitgeist Movement is not a political movement. It does not recognize divisional notions such as races, religions, creeds, classes or governments,” that is a political statement. Politics is nothing more than how people organize themselves in a society and the Zeitgeist movement does nothing but talk about that. As I’ve said before, that’s fine if they do that but please be honest. It’s like Hindus or Christians who say “We don’t have a religion, we have a relationship with God.” B.S., they have a religion. And B.S. to the Zeitgeist movement, they have a political movement.
Finally, a lot of religious people resort to a similar fallback position that you just took: “What is wrong with it if it helps people?”
This is essentially the “Religion Is Useful” argument. What’s wrong with the RIU argument is that it is meant to shift the attention on whether the religion or political movement is true and instead focus on its intent, which is to help people. Christian missionaries have good intentions when they teach their African converts to not use condoms. Their reasoning is to keep these people out of hell. Unfortunately, the side effect is that it contributes to the spread of AIDS in nations that are already infested with the virus. Good intentions are not always the best things to measure a philosophy, religion, or political movement.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:29 am
Yes, but religions tend to base their so called, “good intentions” on faith and beliefs not facts. The Venus Project’s intentions are to use science and facts. There is a big difference.
So let me ask you a question. If the movement in fact does have a political agenda, what do you supposed it might be? What do you think Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco may be trying to get out of all this?
May 5th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Well, to your first paragraph, all religions will deploy certain facts and explain them with a conclusion in order to support their good intentions. It’s called pseudoscience. The problem is that in order to maintain their conclusions, they ignore a lot of other facts. I’m saying that the Venus Project does the same thing.
They want the same thing that everyone motivated politico in the world has ever wanted. A better world shaped in an image of their making.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:27 am
Well, I have to say at this current time, I share Jacque Fresco’s image of the future. It simply looks beautiful and seems to make sense. Who knows, a month from now I may find an even better idea and get all excited about it. Thanks for your input.
May 8th, 2009 at 1:37 am
Hmm, I don’t think Andew gets this fully. If you’re going to debunk and saying that the movement is ignoring other facts, state what other facts and provide evidence.
Do you know how old Jacque is? 93, so really what would he get out of this? Think about it.
I don’t really understand people who says things are wrong without stating sources and backing things up.
If there is indeed a better idea, the movement will adopt to it. That simple.
May 19th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
The truth is that the Zeitgeist Movement is searching to set up a completely different game than is currently in play. Andrew is like a checker on a checkerboard shouting at a chess piece on the chess board across the table that his idea of how to move is all wrong. The game is completely different for those in the Zeitgeist Movement mentality. The boards may look the same, but the rules and so the jargon is completely different.
From a “checker’s perspective” it looks like the Zeitgeist Movement is political in nature. From a checker’s point-of-view it is political in nature.
In the Zeitgeist Movement we are directly saying that the checkers rules are simply not as good as our chess rules.
Not the best analogy, but hopefully it will do.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
It is a pretty good analogy. I think Andy is just trying to point out the styles of arguments that are being used. Keep in mind he has a degree in philosophy. Plus he just likes to argue lol.
Yes, there is no doubt the implications of The Venus Project are way off the charts in today’s way of thinking. People are simply not ready for such a drastic change and pushing one too quickly will possibly cause people to reject it way before they understand it. To use another analogy,
Remember in the matrix, they were trying to “unplug” people? Well, in retrospect that is the same thing we will have to do except the new “real world” will be much better than the matrix that exists today. I noticed that many of the Zeitgeist movement members still don’t have the overall concept in their minds yet either. It is going to take a long time, possibly all of our lives to spread the knowledge.
December 14th, 2009 at 9:44 am
Hey this was potentially one of the most effective blurbs I have come across on the topic so far. I do not know where you learn all your info but I am impressed! I’m gunna send a few people on over to read this. Fantastic, totally amazing. I’m just getting into spitting out articles myself, nothing close to your writing skills (lol) but I would love for you to check out my stuff someday!
December 14th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Christiana,
I am not sure why you put a bow flex amazon affiliate link in your comment but this has nothing to do with this post so I had to remove it.
Thank you for the compliments though. You asked where we get our information? As for me I got most of my information straight from the zeitgeist movement and venus project websites. Plus I have watched many of the videos and listened to numerous radio shows interviewing Jacque and Peter. Also, my just from my own mind on the ideas from my knowledge of the world based on my experiences so far.
September 1st, 2010 at 5:48 pm
I believe that the ideas put forward by the thezeitgeistmovement are crucial in the upheaval of societal roots, people are becoming moronic. Education standards are failing, poverty is increasing. The democratically established powers of the Earth such as presidency and parliament, are interminably crumbling, the power of the people has resigned. World religions, in my opinion, are vacant of any real importance to the basis of humanity, yet are sheepishly followed without any scientific thought and little consideration to philosophy. People do not question the society that has been churned out and fed to them, this is not the meal which i would have ordered if gourmet was realistically on the menu. What about the mind numbing effect of television broadcasting. The video didn’t just kill the radio store. Television killed the publics ability to think for themselves. The monetary system has ambushed people into an economically palpitating corner, and the blame is placed on the heads of those who can do nothing about it, politicians.
My rant laid to one-side, the reoccurring theme it exudes is that this society is at an extreme to perfect and people need to start thinking. Thezeitgeistmovement offers an alternative, maybe it won’t work, maybe the transition to the venus project would cause enough revolt to obliterate the thought completely. But as it stands as an idea, it is indeed marvelous. I am no scholar of philosophy nor do i conceive myself as an intellectual but i believe these ideas should be broadcast to all corners of the globe. Not necessarily to instate the Venus project so that i can witness the movement in my lifetime, but to help the public to think for themselves, to question the injustices of the world and the behavior of human beings. I believe it’s time for the blinkers to be removed.
September 1st, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Michael,
What a fantastic point of view you have on this subject. I think you are correct that the Zeitgeist Movement’s ideas will at least get people to think. I understand the movement’s ideas, and if everyone else did too there is no way they could ignore it. It makes too much sense. The problem is that most people are so helplessly dependent on the current system they won’t even give the idea’s a chance. I have talked to many people about the ZM ideas and they are always very quick to dismiss the whole thing because they run into one thing they don’t like about it. We have got to somehow get these ideas into the minds of young people for it will ever work.